The Threat to Carmarthen as a Market Town of distinction

The clock tower would stay where it is and a new alleyway of shops would be created from Red Street to Fair Lane.

From Red Street to Fair Lane? I've pictured this in my mind and I can't see much room for more shops going from Red Street to Fair Lane. The only way they can do this is to get rid of the market, which is NOT going to happen.

A multiplex cinema, a big name store with a bowling alley upstairs and a multi-storey car park would be built at the back of the site.

I've heard that if these are to be built then the shops just outside the market, e.g. the pet shop, trphoy shop, sports shop and the florists, will have to be demolished, which their owners are opposed to.

Council Leader Meryl Gravell said: "We want a scheme which works for the whole town. We always said the provisions market would be a key part of any development.

Does she really expect me to believe this mumbo-jumbo? She, the poor excuse for a council leader, and Mark James are just the same... Out with the market, and in with Debenhams and co.

The project will provide extra car parking for the town and create more than 300 jobs.

Extra car parking? Yeah.. extra car parking for Debenhams staff, but probably next to nothing for customers and market traders.

A MULTI-million pound deal for a massive shopping complex and new market for Carmarthen is within reach, the Journal can exclusively reveal today.

If agreement is reached, the scheme will create hundreds of jobs and make Carmarthen one of the hottest shopping centres in south Wales.

After months of bitter wrangling, hopes are pinned on a compromise package produced by Carmarthenshire Council.

Under the latest scheme, a brand new market hall and Debenhams superstore will be at the heart of the site.

It will involve the market being located in virtually the same position it is now - a sticking point in the negotiations thus far.

The clock tower would stay where it is and a new alleyway of shops would be created from Red Street to Fair Lane.

A multiplex cinema, a big name store with a bowling alley upstairs and a multi-storey car park would be built at the back of the site.

St Catherine Street would be closed to traffic during certain times of the day but remain open for the morning and evening rush hours.

The plan, which has been given a 'cautious' welcome by market traders, is the seventh option to be presented to council chiefs.

And it follows a request by the authority for a scheme which keeps the market, which will be demolished and replaced with a new building, in roughly its current position.

A series of meetings between council officers, councillors, developers, market traders, the chamber of trade, town council and other interested groups are being held this week.

The plan will then be discussed by the council's executive board before going to full council for a final decision next month.

Council Leader Meryl Gravell said: "We want a scheme which works for the whole town. We always said the provisions market would be a key part of any development.

"This plan would see it located on part of the site it occupied before 1982.

"We have listened to the people and asked the developers for new plans. Initial discussions show that this option could be the way forward.

"We will continue to work closely with the traders and everyone else involved."

The huge development is aimed at extending the town centre to embrace the old mart site.

A host of top name stores and leisure facilities have pledged to be part of the scheme if Debenhams is the anchor store.

The project will provide extra car parking for the town and create more than 300 jobs.

Market Action Group chairman Phil Grice said: "Traders have given a cautious welcome to these proposals, pending seeing the published details during the course of the week."

Source:- Carmarthen Journal, edition Wednesday, 10th March, 2004

look at BBC news on carmarthen for the latest news. or the journal on Wednesday. Who are these people speaking for the traders? Phil Grice is a pompous ass who just likes his picture in the paper, and has no principles. Liz Bellamy - nice woman, but no spine.

This development is the worst of all possibel worlds for the traders. The market will be closed for longer. The floor space is smaller. Option C was better, as at least the process of moving would have been complete in a short space of time ( they promised that the new market would be ready before the old one was demolished), This options will have the market closed for at least a year. Good idea or what?

The 'cautious welcome' offered by the 'market traders' (phil grice I suspect) should be recinded now. The whole scheme should be re-considered. They are going to spend $7m re-developing the leisure centre. Why not located it in the mart - centre of town, big attraction for young people ( who can't afford Multiscreens and 10 pin) and a draw for tourists. At the moment, in Johnstown, the leisure centre serves only the West of Carmarthen. It is tatty and under capitalised. Not a good advert for the town for visitors. Make it a central attraction with leisure swimming pool, slides, waves etc, and places for the young to just hang out with their friends, and perhaps shoot pools, or video games. A civic amenity, not a capitulation to big business. If I wanted to live in Croydon, I'd move to Croydon - lots of big shops but no soul.

Anyway, the market is far more important to carmarthen than the individual trader's businesses - it's an institution that defines the town. It is a shame thet the traders took control of the fight, and refused help from people who could have used skills and influence to make the scheme impossible.

Shame on you Phil Grice - yopu sold us all out, all 60,000 of us who signed the petition in good faith.

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CITY'S BUSINESS LEADERS SLAM 'MONSTROUS SHOPPING DEVELOPMENT' SCHEME



09:00 - 19 February 2004


A £50 million scheme to build a huge Debenhams department store, up to 37 shops and dozens of affordable flats, creating a "shopping fortress" in the heart of Truro has been shown off to the public for the first time.


Developers swept into the city last week to unveil their designs for the massive development at the top of Pydar Street which would increase Truro's shopping space by up to 40 per cent.

But the "imaginative and exciting" project has been branded "inappropriate" for Truro by a leading district planner and attacked as "monstrous" by concerned business leaders.

If approved, the development would see St Clement Street which runs past Courts furniture store re-routed behind Viaduct car park along Oak Way. A public consultation and exhibition starts in the next couple of weeks.

Developer Nick Chapman, of Clavell Ltd, of Wells, Somerset, said: "We believe very strongly that we have a very strong and exciting development scheme for this wonderful site.

"Demand in Truro for a scheme with a department store is extremely good. If this is successful the cake for Truro gets larger for everyone."

A series of detailed drawings, computer graphics and photographs were presented to members of Carrick Council's cabinet last Thursday by Mr Chapman and architects Max Lyons and Charlie Minty.

The scheme, to be completed by 2008, would begin with the construction of council offices at part of the site, which is jointly owned by Clavell Ltd and Carrick, and which would be followed by the retail aspect of the project and 85 one to two bedroom affordable flats.

However, the local authority's head of planning, Derek Ballard, said although the scheme was "going in the right direction" it was "inappropriate" for Truro in its current guise.

"I think this is an incredibly imaginative scheme thus far. But I think it fails the test of what's appropriate for Truro. My advice is to say some other scheme should deliver what we require for Truro but in a way that's rather more harmonious with the current environment," Mr Ballard said.

Mr Ballard went on to say that some of the project's high sided buildings would create a "canyon" and "fortress shopping" effect in Truro.

The scheme has met total opposition from Truro business leaders who have branded it a monstrosity.

A statement from Truro Chamber of Commerce executive committee says: "The proposed monstrous isolated shopping development on the outskirts of Truro threatens the unique distinctive character and prosperity of our historic city.

"This huge modern development in our conservation area, set between out two most prized listed structures, the cathedral and the viaduct, is totally inappropriate."

1. How was the tendering process handled?
------Was it open tender, in which case where and how was it advertised?
------If it was closed tender, who was invited to tender, and why?

2. When was it decided to include the market site in the design brief?
------Before it was passed by the council? In which case were the council members made aware of this before voting?
------Afterwards? In which case on whose authority?

3. How much is the land worth? With and without the market component? - they must have a valutation.

4. Has due dilligence been carried out both on Debenhams and on the developers? if yes, has this process been repeated since Debenhams was taken private by Barroness Retail?

5. Have operators been found for the multiscreen and the 10pin bowling? our sources tell us nobody wants to touch them.

6. What safeguards are in place to make sure that Debenhams don't move out after a couple of years, as Tesco did, and sell the land or the lease?

7. On what citeria were the other 3 bids rejected? At least the public should be allowed to see them.

8. Why was the consultation process effectively confided to 4 Mondays, during office hours? Monday is Carmarthen's quietest day, and no market users would be in town, as most of the stalls are shut. Wouldn't Wednesdays or Saturdays have been more representative? Why was ther no 'none of the above' choice offered as an answer for the question regarding preference a to d?

9. Why are copies of the Design Brief so hard to obtain?

10. Rumours of how Mark James was going to bring Debenhams to Caramrthen were rife long before the tendering process was begun. Was the tender document perhaps biased in favour of a Debenhams option?

We have a right to know these things, and yet attemps by us and others to get at the deefinitive truth remain unsuccessful. The usual response is silence.

Badger your councilor to get at the truth. This is an important matter, and must not be allowed to be carried by default.

more questions later

We asked the Department of City and Regional Planning at Cardiff University if they had any quantative research on the possible effects of introducing multiple stores into a market town like Carmarthen. They are unaware of any directly relevant research, but confirm the often cited argument, the footfall argument, might bring people into the town.

However, on the second issue, of moving an established market, professor Cliff Guy sounds a warning:

"The second issue is the possible redevelopment of the market. This would seem to be bad news for the market traders and the town in general. Any closure or reduction in the market during redevelopment would deter customers and it would be difficult to pick up trade again afterwards."

This reinforces the experience of ALL other towns where this has been tried, (We challenge Mark James to name one successfull market move in the last 20 years!).So, make no mistake, you move the market, and YOU WILL LOOSE IT!

A group called save our town have proposed an alternative plan, drawn up by architects, which leaves the market whre it is, in its present premises. There are many other bits to the plan, but the aim is to kieep the market where it is. Which is what the 60,000 people who signed the petition want.

Anyway, Liz Bellamy, their leader, has rubbished the alternative plan, because it proposed an enlargement of the market by adding a mezzanine floor, though which a modern walkway would connect the current market precinct to the proposed leisure complex beyond. They think this would harm the character of the market. They are, however, still advocating the '5th option' which will move the market, and destoy it - This blog asks Liz Bellamy - Whoese side are you on? We'll publish your answer in full if you choose to reply.

Another disasterous tactical mistake liz - were you advised by that master tactician, phil grice (racist, bigot and pompous ass)? Divide and rule - alexander the great understood that, but he expected to have to bring it about. You are making it easy for them. Think ' my enemy's enemy is my freind'.

Don't you understand that from the plans, the mezanine could easily have been negotiated out of the proposal? Are you so taken with Mark James that your powers of perception are dulled. I hope not. Wise up - or you are going to loose what should be an easy fight to win. Grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory - is that the way you want to go down in the anals of Carmarthen History? I'm not sure who is on what side anymore - pelase let me know.

This is not about market traders making a living - it's about the town. Market traders come and go - the market has been in Carmarthen for at least 2000 years, so you don't have a monopoly on its continuation - many, many others do as well.

Although I am willing to conceed that I was premature in saying that you had capitulated to Mark James earlier, it's looking more an more as though I was right. Your actions speac of someone wanting to loose gloriously rather than win - whatever it takes.

Still love you though, and am on your side.

Not a lot of time tonight, but, here's one for those Debenhams champions - it's bad news for all debenhams staff.

They are shutting stores.

They are shedding staff in the stores - even the ones they are keeping open.

And even their 'flagship' development is only 99.9% certain of going though. Anybody who knows about corporate speak knows that that that means they have already decided to can it , but don't want to start the lagal process just yet. Find out here:

Debenhams become vicious and not nice people to know

There have been a number of alternative suggestions from many sources regarding the proposals, all intended to retain the market as it is. They are all well intentioned, but flawed in very important ways. For instance:

1) Offer Debenhams the 5 fields site, and leave Tesco where it is.

Problem - Debenhams won't have it, they only go to town centres. Tesco wont have it - they want an out of town super store in contravention of all current thinking from Government (Welsh and UK) on out of town developments.

Tesco scuppered a move by ASDA to move to Carmarthen - so they have a lot of power. Personally, I'd rather see tesco bugger off and ASDA open on thir site, or on hte mart site.

2) Offer Debenhams the Tesco site, and put Tesco on the Mart

Problem - Neither of them are interested.

3) Offer Debenhams the site currently occupied by the Day Centre in John street, and use the mart for amenity use. - a leisure dome and swimming pool

Problem - Debenhams won't go behind the market, so they certainly won't go behind M&S - who incidentally, are numero une in the clother retaining stakes. Debenhams are No 4. Mmaybe not relevant, but interseting.

4) the "5th option" - leave the market where it is but re-build it somewhere else ( at a rotation of 90 degrees)

Problem - Worse that all the other 4 officially sanctioned options, the market would be closed for far longer, the disruption would be worse, and the market would be smaller that it is now ( look at the plan of the site), most if not all of the permanent stallholders ( the butchers etc in the precinct, including the combat store that never opens) would loose their premises.

Whoever thought of this option, and offered it up to the council as the compromise solution, should have his lobotomy reversed. (phil grice, are you listening? Who sanctioned you to abandon the whole of your negotiating position and the principle upon which 60,000 people signed a petition in the hope that the nice mry James might pull a rabit out of a hat, out of kindness and consideration to you personally, saving your face in return for delivering the market traders so meekly into his hands?)

5) Offer Debenhams the site currently occupied by the County Hall, and move that to Trimsaran ( just outside Mrs Gravelles house to cut down on her expenses); 5 fields; or to Mark'James's spare bedroom. Public spirited man that he is, He won't mind at all. (ok, this is the editor's choice and wins this blog's first award for lateral thinking)

PROBLEM - Too radical and forward thinking. We are talking 1980's mentality here, so sensible though it is, logically and intellectually sound in every way it might be, - it could even be the answer to all the contention and bad feeling caused but his whole issue. It is likely to get short shrift from the ' Powers that be' however, because there woudl be no jollies to other places to see this scheme in action, it's so revolutionary.

6) - do nothing - the scare tactic being used by the council and its apologists against those oposed to the current plan, which They say is by far the best and only option for the town.

Problem - This just isn't true. 6 and a half acres of prime development land in the centre of of a prosperous market town? no takers apart from the one favoured by Mark James? I don't think so. I have talked to a number of property developers who were not aware of the invitation to tender, (where was it advertised, adn who was invited to tender? Many of tthem would jump at the chance to
develop this high profile site for any of a number of purposes - leisure, housing, fairground, airport ... you name it and a developer could be found.

Bit of editorial polemic here

All these suggestions have some commong faults : they assume Debenhams want to come here -so far we have only Mark James's word for it, and he doesn't answer questions about the current position ( see post on Debenhams) ; They assume that bringing Debenhams and the likes of FCUK into Carmarthen is a jolly good thing - contrary to all research both here and in America about the effect of multiples on the independent sector in smaller towns. It assumes that a 10 pin bowing alley and a multiplex will keep the disaffected youth happy, placid and living here. A very dubious proposition indeed.

Carmarthen as a Retail Destination? Leisure shoping? What a very Yesterday idea. The high street is dying - just look at the business pages. They had a disasterous Christmas, as the house price fuelled consumer boom ran out of steam. People have borrowed heavily against the inflated prices of their houses, and on their Credit Cards, and are dreadfully over extended. Average house price = 5x average income - unsustainable.

The government are ver worried about this. Interest rates are set to rise again ( you read it here first!) which again will hit the high street. Not a good time to be selling the family silver to the first knocker who comes to the door.



All this sites says is - Stop, and let's have a considered look at what is hapening here, and be sensible, before we do something very rash, silly, expensive.

- End of polemic, but we will be returning to this subject at another time soon.

Soon, also, We'll be examing the Design Brief, which was agreed by the council, and is generally a fine and sensible document. But in small but subtle ways it was 'sexed uo' to use the term of the moment, to make the Debenhams, 10 pin bowiling & multiplex options (what, for some reason, many people are calling the Boston option - again more on this later) the outright winner before even the tender was advertised. Funny that, long before the tender process was begun, The Journal was full of how mr James was going to save Carmarthen by bringing Debenhams here. What a co-incidence, then, that this was the option that won the tender.

Also to come - the traffic issue- closing Cathering Street. A lot of people are relying on the stupidity of this proposal to scupper the whole thing - sorry to disapoint you, they've got this covered, so don't waste any more time arguing about it. think Traffic calming, and FCUK the local residents.

Debenhams

Debenhams have anounced 200 job cuts as the extent of the cost cutting and ruthless style of the CEO Rob Templeman starts to become apparent. He was brutal ar Halfords and looks to be continuing in the same vein at Debenhams. So lets look at some facts:

In October 2003, Debenhams group was bought by a conglomerate of American and European venture capitalists, trading under the name Barroness Retail, and so are no longer a British company - all profits from their trading in Britain will go overseas. People should be aware of this.

Rob Templeman, the new CEO has put all aspects of the busines, including new developments, under review. A scheme in Bury St.Edmonds very similar to the Carmarthen scheme, which was within weeks of proceeding, has been
put on hold while Debenhams decide whether to go ahead.

They have put their suppliers on notice that they will no longer be paid in 30 days, but rather in 60 or 90 days. This will be a big problem for British suppliers. They are reviewing the rents paid by their franchisees, with a view to increasing them significantly It is likely that a number of them will leave (rumours surround Top Shop's committment to the stor)

Given the uncertainty surrounding the future of the key player in the Livestockmarket re-development, and the bad feeling that has been arroused, surely this is an opportune momnet for the council to call a pause, take a reality check, and stop what appears to be leming like stampede to hand the future of Carmarthen over to a company whose values, principles and future plans are all unknown.

David Morgan in Cardiff are being bought out by a similar group, who plan to close the store and re-develop the site as mixed leisure and residential. Retail is generally seen as a weak sector, having had a disasterous Christmas (though Debenhams, being Private now, don't release sales figures) and no one is imune from the cold winds of economics.

Let sanity prevail - let's pause and engage in a proper dialogue about what is best for the town before we commit to something we and our children may live to regret.